The Great Debate?

I note that the athiest vs religionist debate chunters on, recently re-fuelled by the publishing of Christopher Hitchens new book “God is not great : The case against religion“. Christopher has a brother – Peter – a journalist who is a devoted christian. Both men obviously shared an upbringing but diverged in their views. Yesterday, as part of the 8 o’clock news on Radio 4, the two brothers were debating the title and the ethos behind the book. It was both fresh and stale at one and the same time. A kind of familial Dawkins rant..although he seems to be mellowing from what I’ve been reading lately in the Times  and elsewhere.

The common thing in every such debate that I listen to is not the opposing viewpoints being aired, it’s the inability to “hear” what the other person is trying to say due to formulating the next verbiose challenge in the battle.

One of the main communication problems throughout this “Great Debate” has been the inability to recognize that both sides are founded on entirely different systems.

One is intellectual, the other is spiritual.

They are so disparate that there will never be a satisfactory conclusion.

The intellectuals insist on evidentiary open-ness and yet use flawed evidence and arguments themselves to underpin their case, and hypocritically become smug, angry or both when the theists do the same. Kettle and pot here methinks.

The theists attempt to package their arguments in intellectual terms which will only ever create the appearance of mind-control or behavioral modification. What they need to concentrate on is that central to any spiritual experience which is life-changing in nature, is some form of relationship with the chosen deity which has a positive, fulfilling impact on the person and their life expression. This may seem to be an ‘opt out’ but since life is a personal matter, it must be lived to the fullest extent of it’s revelations. Clearly for most theists, this does not happen, and to quote the Good Book – we all fall short of the mark.

Most of us fall short of our own standards and are just too proud to admit that and make any adjustment – preferring to attack and criticize others rather than make any effort to change. This arrant hypocrisy is not the sole preserve of the theists and is clearly visible in the arrogant posturing and ranting of the supposed intelligentsia on this recent thread.

What I fail to understand and accept is who is being oppressed by religion?

If you don’t want a religious lifestyle, no-one is forcing you to become a practitioner.

If you’re a homosexual religionist – you simply form your own homophilic religion – when all said and done, a denomination is simply a community of individuals who share the same religious expression. In the West we have freedom of speech and expression, although there is evidence of that becoming increasingly restricted under the current UK Government, but there is still great latitude for the individual.

We do indeed have a legacy of a Judao-Christian foundation to our legislature and in the main this had contributed to a great degree of stability to our society, however, three decades of increasing secularization of institutional policies and procedures seem to be accelerating the general degradation and dumbing down of the standards of our society. I rather think the witch-hunt should be rooting out the anarchists who take delight in condemning large sectors of our population to increasing levels of social, emotional, financial and educational deprivation. Some theists attempt to address this through direct engagement with communities via schooling and proselytisation – and who can blame them.

Where are the humanists and atheists in this landscape? Scowling and posturing, criticizing and pulling down. No practical input that I can see apart form Mr and Mrs B Gates.

A quick trip down our historical corridors may well throw up many vicious and evil deeds perpetrated in the name of God or against his followers of any and every stripe….BUT there have been many religious philanthropists who have built valuable foundations on which our society has grown. Was it atheism that initiated public education and health, moved for the abolition of slavery etc etc? I rather think not.

But I’m sure the tiresome arguing will wrangle on for decades, with neither side listening for the heart of the argument of the other side.

In the meantime, both sides need to pause and ask themselves what positive effect and contribution are they ACTUALLY making to the lives of those with whom they live and work. Anything else is pure selfishness.

Perhaps the atheistic libertines could invest some of their energy and philosophical prowess on getting alongside some single mums, a few addicts, a pensioner or two and seeing how appropriate their towering intellects are in bringing practical help, comfort and guidance to the needy in our society.

Perhaps the theists could practice what they preach but practically. Valid religion, true religion according to the Bible [ James ] is to look after widows and orphans – the most needy people in that culture at the time of writing. Certainly Christianity is about being selfless, loving the Lord with all you are and loving your neighbour just as much as you love yourself, even if they are your atheistic enemy.

Religionists need to show us the colour of their experiential money, then more people might be convinced of the spiritual effect on offer. Apart from the atheists of course – they regard themselves as intelligent beings ascendant way above the common man.

But both sides need to do something to validate the veracity of their stance.

St Francis sent his acolytes out to ‘preach the gospel, and if you must, use words!’

Actions speak louder than words.

It doesn’t matter whether you are an atheist or a theist, we’re all fiddling while society is burning.

Spamless

Maybe I shouldn’t say this, but since we changed our email provider from Tiscali to Madasafish, we have received no spam.

That’s right…….

No Spam at all.

It’s really peaceful, not having to wade through the rubbish in order to find real messages.

Hope I haven’t spoken too soon!

Picture this….

I’ve been experimenting with sharing my picture via Picasa. If you haven’t got this Google software it’s worth downloading, specially if you’re a bit e-thick like me!

Some pictorial highlights…

http://picasaweb.google.com/The2Ellerbys

Bye for now, it’s almost 9pm, I’ve been awake since 3am due to jetlag, been to work all day and now the Sandman is strongarming me of to my chambre de nuit!

Yz

Dave

California Dreaming

We are now back from the US of A.

I’d hoped to be able to post a regular travelblog [ like my b.i.l Vic ] but had made the mistake of not having the right password with me. I did manage to email my girls every day so here is my account of a wonderful trip………

June 4th 2007

SAN FANTASTIC
Dear Darlings,
I’d hoped to be able to blog all this but seem to have got the wrong blogpassword with me !!!Doh!!

This place is a gigantic playground and we are having sohhhhhhhhhhh much fun it’s unreal. So here’s an update on how things have been so far….
On Saturday after a totally smooth and trouble free flight with KLM where nothing [ and we mean NOTHING ] went wrong we arrived in SF. In fact we had really swanky seats almost at the very front of the plane in quite a secluded area compared with the cattle class at the back!
But we arrived slightly early, got thro customs and immigration in about 45 minutes [!!!!???????] onto the BART [ Bay Area Rapid Transport ] and got straight thro to where our hotel was…. well nearly. The mannie at the Bart helpdesk misdirected us by about two stops so we had to drag our cases quite a distance along an increasingly seedy street with the usual homeless, drunk, noisy eccentric types you get in major cities.. but eventually everything -again- worked out well, cos right on the boundary of the seedy stuff was our hotel! The Hotel Whitcomb. It’s lovely too..an American version of an Edwardian hotel..sumptious, stylish, art-deco marble and doorsmen!! Really helpful staff and room service with an extra 10 coat hangers being delivered within minutes of the request and they’ve continued like that ever since! They have a concierge service which helps you with information and the lady told us about churches for the Sunday – you know what we’re like! So once we’d unpacked we went for a walk to stretch our legs and find our bearings. WE are six hours behind you so you’d need to add all this on to know how tired and wired we felt with the excitement and the fatigue/jetlag… So we found the first reccommended church and just down from it [ at 5pm local time / 11pm GMT ] was a burger place called Sliders ( on Polk)…INCREDIBLE food… they even asked how we wanted the burgers cooked … rare for me and then we troughed out on the salad. Mama got her chargrilled burger a week later than requested. Then it was off to bed at about 8′ish..I couldn’t keep her awake any longer..we’d been on the go since 4am our time and it was now the equivalent of 1-2 in the morning.

…slept till 3.30am local time, did our devotionals till 4,30, leisurely showered and got moving, hitting the streets at 7 looking for breakfast before church at nine. By 7.30 we’d found a fab greasy-spooner breakfast bar run by a Vietnemese granmamama and had an awesome b’fast… Mama :- bacon and eggs [ easy over] plus hash brown and toast… Dadz on omelette and hash browns and toast and then we split a ’short stack’ [2] of pancakes and maple syrup with all the decaff we could get down us… seven quid!.

Then we walked off up the hills [ you should see the hills !] to the first church… no-one there… walked and bussed to the alternative church … no-one there…went back to the first church to find 3 ushers and that the service was an hour later than we were told…went for a walk to discover church no 3 starting at 11…went back to church 1 for service at 10 …left for church 3 at 10.45…left church 3 at 12 …!Phew!!

Then we rode the cable cars and the buses to and fro across the city…up and down the impressive hills…Oh those Hills! ending up at Fishermans Wharf …supposedly a major attraction but actually just Scarborough on Steroids…a bit disappointing. But we also looked round a French Bakery [ Boudins ] and sampled some sourdough bread…had a Ben & Jerry’s ice cream each [ mama's melting down her hand!] …then off for a cruise round the Golden Gate bay in the biting wind [ Oh my red face with wind burn ..] and mist…with wind and kite surfers keeping up with and overtaking the ferry cos the wind was so strong… they were leaping out of the water like dolphins too!…back to the jetty via Alcatraz – grim followed by a trip round the aquarium then a tram ride back to the hotel were we rested and read for a while before finishing the day at a Brazilian restaurant..Cafe do Brasil….. incredible cuisine…best beef and pork I have ever tasted in my life! Bed!!Asleep by 11.30.

This place is ab awesome! So friendly and tolerant and cool temps too…gotta come back with you all…

Today we slept till 4.30 then on again till 7.30!! We was LATE!!!
Back to the breakfast place but grandmama wasn’t there so service rubbish but food just as good.
Then —- MAN!!! Then we rented a Go-Car.. little tiny two seat three wheeled buggy powered by a motor cycle engine steered and controlled by motor bike handlebars it has a GPS tourguide on board with a commentary and directions and we pootled all over the place for three totally loopy hours getting lost getting found getting on tour getting off tour up hills down hills out to the Golden Gate bridge and back via a massive park called ‘The Golden Gate Park’. Best thrills ever! What a hoot! Took it back had falafel at a Palestinian – Mediterranean food bar . Then off again on the bus out to the GGpark.. … I say IMMENSE botanical garden and arboretum.. best we’ve ever been to in our lives .. drinking Oolong tea at an exquisite Japanese tea garden..plus eating rice crackers… eventually left at 5.45 to hunt for a bus home whilst drinking a litre of freshly squeezed [ in front of us ] orange juice – so refreshing…caught the tram back… had a shower and have now spent 40 minutes typing this out to let you know we are well and about to go back to Sliders!

June 5th 2007
Modern ART ? Modern ART ???? It’s the future!!!

here we are again, tired and hungry afer a busy day enjoying ourselves … but this time we are together…. just! Mama and I are exhausted but resisting the powers of darkness!

Update – last night we didn’t get back to Sliders but went to Chinatown… looking for a greasy spoon – make that greasy chopsticke – non commercial authentic place to eat and found one – in a cellar! Unfortunately they were about to close [ but still let us in without telling us ] then proceeded to bring the food so fast the friction cooked it! Mama’s dish was actually sizzling when it arrived. Both our courses came almost at the same time.. first course was a mixing bowl each full of wonton soup and vegetables followed by clams and black bean for me, roast pork and oyster mushrooms for mama… but she got some extras of a tofu/bean curd/eggy rubber shaving thingy that even I wouldn’t eat. So we was hustled out of there in about 45 mins then home to bed …. by a yellow cab! We had to tell the foreign eastern european cabbie the way back to the hotel! Another box ticked.

Today….. Tuesday.
Went back to our usual breakfast haunt to be greeted [ and we mean greeted ] by a chirpy relative of the grandamama & sourpuss from the previous trips. See previous entry for breakfast details. Then downtown to Bloomingdales to buy Andrew & Christa a wedding present.
WE HATE RETAIL THERAPY!
The Bloomingdales store is the brightest shiniest place we have ever been in. We needed sunspecs,
Then we spent from 11 to 4 in the SF Museum of modern art. BRILL! We have seen some wonderful stuff, had a short guided tour and seen some pretentious shasch as well but a great day. But then tiredness kicked in and it took us almost all our strength to crawl unaided across the street and on to the bus home.
We’ve been having a de-caff in our room ready and resting for our Arabic Fusion Dinner tonite at Saha!
Be Envious!
Be very Envious!
We will be eating some mega special and interesting things and animals…

the saga will continue tomorrow…..

Here’s Mama..
Hi Darlings,
It really has been great fun especially the little Gocars. Check them out on the web-site to see what they look like!! It was the warmest day too. They are having unseasonally low temps just now. Typical!! I am going to have to wash socks!! Boy am I glad of my Cairngorm fleece I bought just before coming here. It hasn’t been off my back apart from in the museum!! It looks like it is going to be even cooler tomorrow, not making 60F. Dadz is glad that he isn’t sweating like a stuck pig!! The artists work we saw today were Matisse, Picasso, Kandinsky, Dali, Mondrian, Keel and some good photos by some Hungarian bod called Monckisc or something!! Well that’s it for now, our time is up.

June 6th 2007
Wine Country

We are late checking in this evening .. it’s 10.06 here and we were late back from today’s excursion.
Earlier we had booked a car so that we could explore a bit of California outside the city and this morning we set off about 8.30 -8.45 ish, drove over the Golden Gate bridge, parked, walk there and back over the bridge then drove to a small town called Petaluma.. which was just like being on the set of Back to the Future 1. We had an interesting walk there guided by an article in a free tourist magazine before driving on and North into the Sonoma district. We eventually ended up at a winery for a tasting but they didn’t do tours..so we drove on, located a visitor centre and found out about a winery[ the Benziger Winery ] that did do tours…did the tour, tasted the wine, drove home the wrong way back to SF and were to late to return the car this evening. Spent at least a decade trying to find a fuel station to refill the tank, I managed to twice turn the wrong way onto one way streets… but I was very tired by now. Nothing to do with the wine since I barely swallowed any!
So we eventually made it back to the Hotel just after 8 … shower then off to Sliders for a final burger showdown!
Last night’s meal was the arabic fusion food which although pleasant didn’t justify the cost. Today we have lived on fruit and crisps until our $15 evening burger to make up for the damage done by Ahmed and his merry men!

Tomorrow we transfer to Dublin and meet up with the rest of the family.

June 7th 2007
Wedding Rehearsal, Schmersal!!
Mama and I are now over at Dublin. Yesterday we got up early for me to take back our rental car and for Mama to start packing. Then we went for our [possibly] last breakfast at the viet-breakfast bar…since discovered it’s called ‘All Stars’ ! They were really nice with us and let us take a couple of pix too! Then we went back on the cable cars for a ride to get the most out of our city travel passes. Got some vid clips of that. Finally it was time to leave SF and go over to Dublin.

It gets much hotter inland and once we got of the train it was boilingo. Dadz sweat!! Meh!!!

We started trying to walk to our hotel { Holiday Inn Express Suites }which was less than a mile away but gave up and got a taxi…we weren’t actually sure where the hotel was anyway.
Dublin is a bit of a desert regarding entertainment so we’re stranded in this bland hotel… but at least the Cammies and the Dobbies are here.

We were just getting together with everyone about 4.45 when Andrew told us we were all due at the rehearsal at six. We’d met Jo’s nephew Bob [54] who is a hoot and he and his wife Chris and daughter Laura were giving us a lift so that was fun. So we all arrive [ late ] at the rehearsal. It took ages and was hot and dry and complex. The other side of the family seem a tad ….. wary of our humour! I managed to find a beer for Bob and me whilst getting a drink of water for Mama! It was an accident – honest….! Nunsy and Vic are reading scriptures and I think Vic is going to go really Doric…I’m doing the grace before the meal … thinking of maybe cutting it down to 10 minutes…

Afterwards the bride’s mum took us all [ about 30 of us ] out for a really nice meal at the Crazy Buffet…or something like that. Thanx Nancy.

We’ve just had breakfast with the Dobbies and Jo and am about to look for a really wild shirt to take on the cruise plus a special bow-tie.

June 8th

a shortie….

The wedding went really well and for all my pre-match cynicism was actually a very moving service. The couple look and seem very good together and the testimony of their friends indicates that something special is/has been going on there.

…I’m missing home and am ready to come back now. This place [ Dublin ] is no where near as special as SF… it’s just a building site of housing, hotel and industrial expansion having all the character and grace of a hot patio in the desert… which is pretty much what it is!

It’s 9.30 am here and our day is going to be a little odd as the three households plus Robert, Chris and Laura Koch [ Tallie's son + ] have to decide on renting transport and getting ourselves back to SF for our trip to Alcatraz tonight. Also we need to find somewhere to cash our travellers cheques … running out of $$$$$$.

back soon,

June 9th

Dodgy Stretch Limousine!

Well here we are just 26 hours after our last entry on the famous travelogue…

The wedding for all the preparations was a long and elaborate affair but worked well, with a processional of the family parties in to the wedding area led by our very own Jo looking very elegant ! She loved the affair and really rose regally to the occasion as the Grand Dame of the event! Then after the bride and groom families walked in – in correct order, they were followed by the three couples of bridesmaids and groom’s men and then it was off!!! Andrew and Christa had written their own vows regarding their desires and obligations to each other. At the appropriate time in the ceremony they had their first kiss. Then it was off to the reception. All the speeches and such like were first, followed by me on Grace then a lovely buffet supper. After a little while us Brits demonstrated and led the company in some Scottish Country dancing. The yanks seemed to really enjoy that and threw themselves into it. After that it was a nice time of some disco favourites and we all cleared off back to the hotel for a late evening drink about 10.30′ish. We were all pretty tired by then what with the excitement and the heat. Vic and I have been in direct competition for the “Sweatiest Man” award!! Euuuugfh!

Yesterday – Saturday, we all went in to SF on the BART to play on the trams/cablecars and re-visit [ for us anyway ] many sites, sights and sounds. We ambled through China Town along Tat Dung street were all the gifty trashy shops are intermingled with all the …… restaurants and some good stuff. However we’d ended up separated from the others because we had to find somewhere to change a travellers cheque. So eventually we’d walked our way thro’ Chinatown to emerge, at lunchtime, right next to ‘La Grill Parilla’ !! How eery is that?? Recognising our fate we strolled in and ordered a chicken taco, a chicken burrito and some water…lovely, lovely, lovely food! TexMex – another box ticked.
By now we’d been in touch with the others and met up with the Dobbies who seemed to be on a suicide walking mission by moving persistently away from anything interesting. So we herded them onto our favourite diversion of the cable cars and rode the streets for a while.

Robert & Chris Koch had arranged all the tickets for our Alcatraz trip and so we moved on down to our rendezvous at Fisherman’s Wharf [ Scarborough on Steroids ] for three in the afternoon. Sadly, all the Brits had been grazing whilst on the move so we couldn’t as early as planned. Again most of us then did our own thing agreeing to meet at the cruise pier for 5.30 -5.40 ready for boarding.

Alcatraz was brilliant if rather grim. It’s one thing to see it on the movies all hyped up and part of an exciting plot…. but to actually walk round the oppressive halls, stare into the tiny cells with their huge bars, to see the cityscape of SF so close then realise that the prisoners would have been reminded every day of what they had lost…… Man that’s a heavy deal. Plus the fact that many of the prisoners sounded like psychiatric and psycotically dysfunctional people rather than criminals… not to detract from their actions and crimes.. but you can’t help wondering to what extent the system created the need for Alcatraz.

We left on the early boat with the Camerons and Jo hoping to get her back to our hotel – she’d transferred hotel to be with Rob and Chris but they stayed on the island to mop up the last tours. So we all waited…… and waited …… and waited…… and waited …. and waited for a tram back down to the BART station so that we could get ‘home’ to Dublin. After over 30 mins in the increasingly cool wind and busier and busier night life we decided to grab some cabs instead…so off we walked, found the cab line [ queue ] and as we waited, the driver of a stretch limousine parked outside a night club offered to take us for 7$ each. Vic and I were just too tired and concerned to think anything other than ‘What a relief!’ So this bloke hustles us all in to his big black stretch – which already had a confused American couple sitting in the back. Imagine how they felt when the door was whipped open and eight strange Brits climbed in the back. I had to sit up front and as I got in, was almost sat on the lap of a rather attractive young lady of oriental extraction who seemed to be a very close friend of the stretch driver. Hmmm! Imagine our surprise when within 2 minutes of our setting off, the driver suddenly said to me…
“I need you to fill in this form to authorise me to carry you all to the BART. Quick, quick, put your name, the date, your destination on this form and sign it, [ handing me a small clipboard and biro ] the police are pulling me over.” then to the babe he said ” If we get stopped you get a cab and head on home and I’ll catch you later.”
Sure enough. the cops [ SFPD Taxi Division .... and I kid you not ] explained that the stretch driver was running an illegal and unsafe cab, we had to get out but he would do all he could to help us get to our destination.
So, just like on the ‘Life of Brian’ we all trooped out of the stretch like Romans leaving a hovel… the American couple seemed to melt away, the babe legged it. I offered & provided a statement, we crossed over the boulevard, hailed a couple of proper cabs and eventually we all met up at the BART for a long, tired and giggly ride to the hotel.
Hindsight meant that Vic and I felt like a right pair of donkeys but as usual – what excitement.

So now after a long sleep and a light breakfast, we are waiting for the Kochs and Jo and hope to head off for the Muir Woods – where the Giant Redwood trees roam free and a Star Wars movie shot an Empire landing scene here where Ewan Mcgregor and Liam Neeson meet the long eared nerdy creature Binx! I may not be allowed to leave if they discover me on the premises since they will have been short of nerds for a while. Or maybe not!

June 10th 2007

If you go down to the woods today…………

Here I am in the hotel lobby, writing our last report….

Yesterday we went out for the whole day with the Kochs & Jo. We all piled into their mpv and headed off up the I580 northwards to run across the San Rafael highway bridge thingy which took us past San Quentin prison. What is it with prisons? This one you don’t get tours unless you’re a very naughty citizen. In fact San Quentin is where they do the death row thing for California and is also their ultra-top-maximum security place. It doesn’t look very big but is grim and forbidding, almost on the bay shore-line. It’s only about 3 miles North of the defunct Alcatraz.

Anyway – - I’d been a good dadz so they didn’t drop me off there.

We kept on driving, stopping only at a 7-11 store for some food and some tiddles!

Shortly after a really twisty drive we arrived at Muir Woods [ see ealier comment ] [ I'm having to type really quick now cos there's a queue for t'internet ] lovely stately trees, giant redwoods, small chipmunks and lots of breezes and hot bits…. more later.
Now way past 2.30 then we finished our walk got in the car drove down the coast paddled in the Pacific Ocean at Stinson Beach – Oh the surf and the rollers and the bl**dy cold water – just like home…. then as it was after six we stopped immediately for a seafood grilly kind of meal. Just ordered food when the power failed…finished drinks, drove over to Sausalito and ended up eating in a mega-swanky restaurant called Spinnaker, right on the bay front…..tasty but too classy for me anyway.

Here’s some pix for you…they tie in with the travelogue ..  a bit!

http://picasaweb.google.com/The2Ellerbys

That’s it!

Love you all, see you soon, we are coming home!

The Ellerbys have almost left the building!